This episode explores shame, anxiety, and depression through the lens of Internal Family Systems (IFS). Host Sara Avant Stover is joined by IFS lead trainer and psychologist Rena Dubin for a grounded conversation about how these inner states develop and what they protect. Together, they discuss how unworthiness forms in relationships, how nervous systems adapt to threat, and how self-leadership supports healing. The episode is especially relevant for those interested in psychological and spiritual approaches to inner work.
In this episode, we explore:
- What Internal Family Systems (IFS) is and how it differs from pathologizing models
- How anxiety, depression, and shame function as protective parts
- The role of nervous system safety and early relational experiences
- Leadership, self-energy, and working with parts in groups
- Practical ways to begin noticing and relating to inner parts
Key takeaways
- Anxiety often functions as a protector, attempting to prevent harm or exposure
- Depression can reflect overwhelm, isolation, or carried legacy burdens
- Shame is typically relational and develops through early social and group experiences
- IFS supports curiosity toward inner states rather than identifying with them
- Healing involves relating to parts from self-energy rather than reacting to them
Resources mentioned
- Rina Dubin
- Free Guide: 7 Hidden Ways Your Unresolved Wounds Are Sabotaging Your Business
Episode FAQs
What is Internal Family Systems (IFS)?
IFS is an approach to healing that understands the psyche as made up of different parts, each with protective or adaptive roles. Rather than pathologizing symptoms, it focuses on building relationships with these parts from a grounded, self-led presence.
How does IFS understand anxiety and depression differently?
From an IFS perspective, anxiety and depression are not identities but experiences carried by parts of the system. These parts often developed to manage fear, overwhelm, or unmet needs and can be approached with curiosity rather than judgment.
Why is shame considered a relational experience?
Shame usually forms in relationship, particularly in early family, school, or group environments. It often reflects internalized beliefs about unworthiness that arose when a child’s needs or expressions were not met with attunement.
Can IFS be practiced outside of therapy sessions?
Yes. IFS can be practiced informally through noticing internal reactions, becoming curious about strong emotions, and slowing down enough to relate to inner experiences rather than acting from them.
Who is this episode most helpful for?
This conversation is especially useful for people interested in trauma-informed, spiritually grounded approaches to healing, and for those who notice recurring patterns of self-criticism, anxiety, or emotional shutdown.
Read the Full Transcript
Hello friends. Today on the podcast, we’re diving more deeply into Internal Family Systems, or IFS, which has become a core part of my work over the past several years and a significant part of my own healing journey for over a decade.
Whether or not you’re familiar with IFS, this conversation explores experiences that are relevant to nearly everyone: shame, anxiety, and depression. These are states of being that affect us in different ways and at different times in our lives. I’m joined today by Rena Dubin, an IFS lead trainer and licensed psychologist, for a grounded and wide-ranging discussion of these themes.
Rena has been immersed in IFS since 2004 and brings a depth of experience as both a clinician and teacher. She views IFS not only as a therapeutic approach, but as a way of living—one that supports curiosity, compassion, and self-leadership.
Rena explains that IFS offers a respectful and non-pathologizing way of understanding human behavior. Rather than seeing symptoms as problems to eliminate, IFS understands them as strategies parts developed to help us survive and cope. Many of these strategies formed early in life, before we had full access to adult resources or awareness.
Anxiety, for example, can function as a protector. It may work to keep someone alert or restrained in order to prevent perceived danger. Depression can reflect overwhelm, isolation, grief, or unprocessed anger. Shame is often deeply relational, arising from early experiences of being judged, ignored, or misunderstood.
In IFS, none of these states define who a person is. They are experiences carried by parts of the system. When approached with curiosity rather than judgment, these parts can begin to soften and release what they’ve been holding.
Rena also speaks about leadership through an IFS lens. Effective leadership, she explains, involves holding responsibility while remaining attuned and receptive. It requires the ability to listen, receive feedback, and stay present with complexity. This is especially important in group settings, where power dynamics, identity, and belonging all come into play.
Group work can be particularly healing because many wounds originate in relational and group environments. When people experience safety, curiosity, and self-energy in a group, it can create new internal references for trust and connection.
Rena guides listeners through a simple reflective exercise, inviting awareness of internal reactions and judgments. The goal is not to change anything, but to notice the inner conversations already happening. This noticing is often the first step toward greater self-understanding.
She emphasizes that there is no single correct way to connect with parts. Some people connect through quiet reflection, others through movement, nature, creativity, or relationship. What matters is discovering what helps each person settle and feel resourced.
As the conversation closes, Rena reflects on IFS as a way of life. When strong reactions arise, IFS invites curiosity rather than suppression or blame. By understanding what is being activated internally, people can respond to the world with less reactivity and more clarity.
Healing, in this framework, does not mean eliminating difficult experiences. It means relating to them differently—speaking for what is happening inside rather than acting from it, and allowing self-leadership to guide responses in both personal and professional relationships.
